NO! (Don't shoot me in the face! The Punisher Topic)

[Diabolical]

Okay, so the Punisher MAX Universe comes out of nowhere with the start of that series? I always thought it continued the Marvel Knights run, only cutting out the 616 references. I'm assuming that with Ennis at the helm it should be good, even if less "graphic," right?

The Punisher laid fairly low in the Marvel Universe after Marvel Knights until Civil War, when Fraction fucked things up.
MAX is a separate from the Marvel Universe. There is only one minor connection between the two runs - a social worker Frank helped in MK shows up briefly in a MAX story and she vaguely references what happened in MK...unless I'm confusing that with a later MK story.
Nick Fury and Micro were the only 2 Marvel characters that showed up in MAX (and others later, like Kingpin and Bullseye). The MAX Fury rivals Sam Jackson in terms of badassness.
Although a 616 version of Barracuda and a MAX version of The Russian could be pretty cool.
Ennis' MAX run definitely has a beginning and an end. It was like 10 seasons of a well-plotted tv series that actually knew what it was doing and was able to wrap everything up (unlike Lost...from what I've heard).

And I realize I'm talking MAX up quite a bit, but I loved every story. Ennis never disappointed, IMO. Great character work (the villains were never boring), with plenty of shocks and surprises that could never happen in the 616.

(And ain't it funny how everyone calls the main MU "616" now because a bunch of hardcore nerds starting using it online and it caught on? Twenty years ago, no one knew what the hell that was, and the term is almost thirty years old.)

I had no idea what it meant until a few years ago and found it easier than typing "Marvel Universe" over and over. I looked it up on wiki and it seems that the head honchos at Marvel don't like the term.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I don't think the MAX series was originally intended to be a separate universe. But as time went by and things in the book were getting pretty hardcore, the editorial staff sorta sidestepped fans questions by retconning it into a different timeline.

I see the '616' tag as just a shorthand lingo for fans to refer to the main universe. I think if they would have had any indication it would click when whoever wrote it (was it Warren Ellis? I don't remember exactly) they would have chosen something like 1961 or something with more meaningful context. Clearly 616 is just so random.
I can see the guys at Marvel getting kinda stuffy about it, but if you're gonna have several ongoing What If..? titles, oneshots, and mini series and lines set in alternate universe like the New Universe, 2099, Age of Apocalypse, Noir, MAX, and also having the Fantastic Four and Avengers, and X-Men bouncing around the multiverse well...then it's your own fucking fault.

[anarky]

Thanks for the info.

Rollo, 616 apparently originated in Captain Britain in the early 80s, coined by no less than Alan Moore. Apparently, it was a random number used to designate our world among many, since Brits love their dimension-hopping stories.

[vynsane]

i'm sure moore's use of that particular number was due to its possibly being the 'original' 'number of the beast', because he couldn't get away with calling it the 666 universe.

[anarky]

It would surprise me more if that weren't the case.

[anarky]

Hey, yo, Grimmy, double post--you wanna suck ol' Dick Throbbincock-Johnson?

Starting to sort out the rather scattered paperbacks I've collected over the past few years (since about 2000). Looks like at Comic-Con last year or the year before, I picked up Welcome Back Frank, which I remembered having and wanting to wait until I had a few more to read. I also have Kitchen Irish, which I had forgotten about, Volume 2 of MAX. I likely thought it was the follow-up to WBF.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I think Welcome Back Frank is the most self contained of the stories. You don't have to wait to get other books to enjoy it.

Of the MAX trades, I think Kitchen Irish was the weakest story.

[Diabolical]

I think Welcome Back Frank is the most self contained of the stories. You don't have to wait to get other books to enjoy it.

Agreed.

Of the MAX trades, I think Kitchen Irish was the weakest story.

I was going to disagree until I looked at the list of stories. Its definitely not a bad story, but compared to the others, yeah I can see it being considered the "worst" of the bunch.

[Diabolical]

Damn, you tell me that, and I see that First to Last is inexplicably out of print and Amazon's asking $40+ for both new and used.

$9.91 at instocktrades.com plus $4.00 shipping (or free shipping if you order $50).

[anarky]

Gawd... To order, or not to order. This is the question. Whether 'tis yadda yadda yadda.

Do I order it now, or wait to see if I might be able to find a dented or bent copy at Comic-Con for half cover price? Hmmm. Decisions. You ever ordered from them?

[Diabolical]

Gawd... To order, or not to order. This is the question. Whether 'tis yadda yadda yadda.

Do I order it now, or wait to see if I might be able to find a dented or bent copy at Comic-Con for half cover price? Hmmm. Decisions. You ever ordered from them?

I would wait for Comic-Con, which is only like 2 months away, right? Besides possibly getting it cheaper there you'll have more of a chance to read some of the other MAX stuff first.

I've been tempted to order from them, as their prices are pretty close to Amazon, but I usually end up ordering from Amazon since I only need $25 for free shipping, rather than $50.
I do want to order Essential Punisher volume 3 from them (Amazon doesn't have it), but I may kick it up and order a full $50 before I do though.

[anarky]

I've got Prime for another few months at Amazon since we got Amazon Mom (30% off already low prices on diapers is absolutely nothing to scoff at, especially with free shipping tossed in). We're thinking of renewing it when it expires in December, since they have the movie downloads with paid Prime membership, and $79 is a crapload cheaper than the cheapest Netflix account. We'll just have to see how many movies are available then.

Truth is, though, lately, I've been ordering from Borders, since I have free shipping and they send at least two 33% off coupons every week, and it normally comes out slightly cheaper for TPB's than Amazon, even after tax.

I shall take your advice and wait for Comic-Con, though, since that's how I was leaning already.

[anarky]

Okay, this is mostly for DB, but really for anyone, since we're all geeks here.

I just read a news article about Rucka taking over the 616 Punisher. Now, I respect Rucka, and he's a fine writer, and I suspect he should be the best writer for the non-MAX Punisher since the early 90s, at least.

What I don't get is why they're acting like he's got a totally new take on the Punisher. Discounting stuff like Fraction's wacky version, or Remender's FrankenCastle, or the Lanny Mulletman Edge Punisher and undead angel Punisher that no one gives a shit who wrote, what is, really, different from any previous take on the Punisher? Oh, the Owl's in charge of a mob instead of Kingpin--is that the extent of it?

[Rollo Tomassi]

I see it as hyperbole to get people to try the book. And the farther you go back, the less readers there are that remember old-school Punisher from the 80s. He burned out in the earlyh 90s. All three of his series cancelled. then the ponytail reboot went nowhere. And then you had the Angel/Demon shit. Which is where the character was at its lowpoint. So, starting from there, you've had Ennis' nihilistic almost insane version. The MAX version, which was uber violent and ultimately in its own universe. Fraction's less than stellar take. And Remender's cocksmoke ABUSE of the character. And also Aaron's follow up of the MAX version. So having Rucka do a straight-up pragmatic take on Frank as a one man war on crime like Mike Baron did back in 1987 is "new" again. I, for one, am stoked to see what he can do with it.

[Diabolical]

As much as Remender cornholed the character, I still prefer his work over Fraction. Fraction's shit didn't make a lick of sense.

Even worse is that Fraction and Remender totally undid all the great rebuilding that Ennis did, so promoting Rucka as the man who will be taking Frank back to square one is the right move by Marvel.

Nobody has ever been able to replicate the quality of the Ennis work (even with the really wacky shit he did at times, it was still better than almost everything in previous 10 years), so I'd hate to see Rucka try. Going back to the style of the early Punisher stories could be just what Frank needs, as long as its more Steven Grant and less Mike Baron, because face it, those early Baron issues were pretty poorly written.

And the one thing I really hope Rucka does is limit the amount of interaction Frank has with the rest of the Marvel Universe, unless he keeps to most of the darker, street-level characters, like Daredevil. Frank just doesn't work next to guys like Thing, Iron Man, Hulk, etc.