Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topic

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Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topic

Post by jjreason »

Ok. So much like Star Wars, I'm assuming we're too old to really be affected by new material based on existing properties/characters that we loved as kids.

That being said, there is certainly something about the fact that people keep referring to comics we were lucky to be young for as seminal material. I, of course, am older than the rest of you, and I even I was too young to fully appreciate Dark Knight or Watchmen, even though I was collecting when they were released.

For me, the series I collected back then struck a chord, and are going to turn out to be the focus of what I keep collecting (or keep period) as time moves on here and I (hopefully) start working on liquidating some of the glut.

I think I know the answer to this, but what did you love as a kid? Let's call it from the time you started collecting (be that 8 or 18) until the first time you moved on to other things. If you never left comics to return later, cut it off at 18 for discussion's sake. For what it's worth I left toys & comics for skateboarding of all things. Drinking beer followed shortly thereafter & pussy a short while after that. :lol:

I figured if we had a look at what we loved we could finally conclude one of two things: there is no way to get the magic back because we're too old - if we want magic we need to look at more mature series OR there is a remedy to fix mainstream comics for us, the adult reader, while leaving them accessible to the younger readers. I desperately want to think it's option B, but I'm nearly out of hope. You can't replace the magic of experiencing something for the first time.

WHAT I LOVED:

Uncanny X-Men 140-247 (or thereabouts - it fell off a bit toward the end with the team in Australia for example, but this was my main series)

Mainly-Byrne Alpha Flight 1-40 or so (though he left at 12 I think)

Simonson Thor (337-390?)

Secret Wars 1-12

Miller Daredevil 168-190 or so, and Mazzuchelli's 196 with Wolverine might be the best stand alone issue of all those - not sure if it's Miller scripted or not, but it's insane.

GI Joe 1-50 - maybe a bit higher, but I think this is where I petered off into other things.

Marvel Team Up - which my brother collected. I would have to look back but I think various writers/artists had a go on this one.


Coming back years later, I worked on building what I had from these runs into complete sets. In my experience ebay changed everything - the "need" to go downtown & check the boxes was completely decimated by it.

Since coming back I have worked on collecting certain other series from the same time frame & have learned there were some other really awesome runs going on which I have worked on, but didn't get to experience as a kid:

Amazing Spider-Man 238 - 330 or so (end MacFarlane). I still need to read these issues in the context of a series, I have sporadically read key issues throughout the run but never consecutively.

Byrne Avengers & FF - I'm not sure exactly which numbers we're talking, but more from the same general era.

Interestingly enough, the major character that doesn't appear on this list is Hulk, whom I of course grew to love later on. I wasn't a regular buyer of the series until I started back as a young adult, and I would say, through all I've collected, I enjoyed Bruce Jones' fugitive Banner run the best.
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Post by jjreason »

And I guess the big question that I didn't spell out very succinctly - what do those books/runs have in common that's missing now? Or is it just us?
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Post by RoIIo Tomassi »

Cool! I love talking about comics!! My "runs" are remembered a bit differently, because when I started collecting books, I was piecemealing backwards one or two issues at a time every month, just as I was collecting going forward. Which is a fascinating way to read stories; it was kind of like the movie Memento following the X-Men, Iron Man, Cap etc knowing what happens next, but slowly filling in the blanks of what happened previously. I started "collecting" in 1988ish when I was 14, so 18 would've been in 1992. Here's what I fondly remember.

GIJoe 45-120s. I started collecting right around the 70s during the Cobra Civil War. I had well-read dog eared copies of 45 and 61. Much of the back issues I filled in by buying those 3 for $1 grab bags found in drugstores at the time. My collection going forward was sporadic, but there are some memorable runs in there, like the Snake-Eyes Trilogy and the Trucial Abysmia story that decimated the Joes ranks.
Transformers 1-80. I started with 41. Like the Joes, back issues were plentiful in drug store grab bags. The series ended in 1991, before the 18 year cutoff, so I had a complete run by then.

Punisher. Frank was my first foray into the actual Marvel Universe. Issue 14 was my first, Frank goes undercover as a substitute teacher. Punisher was pretty popular at the time, so I quickly filled in the 13 back issues, the original mini series, and spread out to Punisher War Journal and War Zone.

Uncanny X-Men, Excalibur, and X-Factor. I started all of these books right around Inferno. Uncanny I worked backwards to Mutant Massacre(I already had issue 210). Excalibur was easy to work back to the first issue. X-Factor was a little harder, but my local comic shop had some guy "donate" his collection to them (ie his wife made him get rid of the 60 long boxes in the garage) and they were selling back issues for cheap. I made a huge dent in a lot of series that weekend!

Captain America. I started with the anniversary 350th issue where Steve got his uniform back from John Walker and the big fight with Red Skull 50 issues in the making. Working backwards on that storyline to Cap quitting and then the Scourge storyline before that was one of my most memorable "reverse" collecting experiences.

Iron Man. I bought issue 243 where Kathy Dare shot Tony and paralyzed him. Then worked my way backwards to 200 when Tony introduced the Red/Silver armor and defeated Stane and the original Armor Wars in 225-232.

There were three events that happened that rapidly expanded my Marvel collecting. All were influenced by house ads I saw in Marvel comics Iwas already reading.
The first was the Atlantis Attacks crossover in all the Annuals that year. Many of those Annuals were my first exposure to a lot of new characters.
The second was Acts of Vengeance. I bought just about every crossover issue and didn't stop collecting. That's how Avengers, FF, Daredevil, Thor, and the Spidey titles all started getting collected.
Third, Tom DeFalco became EiC, and bless him, he started a half dozen new comic series almost every year in batches. Like clockwork. What If, Quasar, She Hulk, New Warriors, Darkhawk, Ghost Rider, Namor, etc the list goes on and on. And I was on the ground floor for all of them.

Silver Surfer. Ron Lim's art in the SS Annual is what got me hooked on Norrin Radd, but my first issue of the series was 34. I had no idea who Jim Starlin was or who this Thanos chap was, but I was hooked. Which led to the Thanos Quest prestige series. Which of course led to The Infinity Gauntlet.

I'll reminisce about DC after the break...
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Re: Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topi

Post by Tom Foolery »

jjreason wrote:And I guess the big question that I didn't spell out very succinctly - what do those books/runs have in common that's missing now? Or is it just us?
You didn't have any expectations or pre conceived notions of the characters when you first started.
So that first impression is what became your "core" notion of the characters. As the series progressed, you moved farther away from that core. Writers came and went. Artists came and went. The "history" of the characters expanded so much that what came after eventually exceeded what came before.
What came "before" in your experience, was immutable. But what came after was not. So if the book went in a direction you didn't enjoy, it was a vastly different experience from just reading about what had happened before you "got there".

I guess it's sort of a Doppler Effect of fiction.

For instance, "your" X-Men felt different and not as good when they got to Australia. But for me, that IS the X-Men. That team of Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Havok, Psylocke, Dazzler, Rogue, and Longshot ARE the X-Men. They were referring to Prof X in the past tense(I thought he was dead to be honest.) they hated X-Factor for being mutant hunters, and they were homeless. Everything after that seemed off to me. When Xavier came back and everybody was fawning over him, except Gambit and Jubilee. They were like "who's this douche?" I felt the same way! And All that Blue Team/Gold Team shit. But for somebody else THAT'S the "real" X-Men. And so it goes.
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Re: Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topi

Post by jjreason »

Extremely interesting. I did have "some" preconceived notion about heroes before comics though - my true first forays were the Batman live action series from the 60s and Spidey's appearances on The Electric Company, not to mention the Legion of Superheroes or whatever they called that "Wonder Twin Powers, Activate!" bullshit way back in the day. Without those influences, I would have never looked twice at a comic - at least until Micronauts came out - which I should have mentioned above. Not one of my favorites, but definitely one of the first comics I looked into because I saw it on a spinner & loved (LOVED) the toys so much.

What I was hoping to do somehow was capture what these things we all love had in common, so that there could be a blueprint of some kind for modern comics.

My own theory is that the ownership conglomerates are too controlling - these are cash cow "entities", not beings existing in a universe under significant threat, which it used to feel like they were. Hard to put into words,and it's not exactly my thought, rather something that's been broached here 500 times or so.
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Re: Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topi

Post by Tom Foolery »

Ahh. I see what you're saying. The characters have now become IPs and are "safe" because Disney will never let anything significant or permanent happen to them. And because we are aware of their status as IPs we know that "in universe" nothing will happen to them.

Or perhaps that we filter every story point thru a jaded viewpoint and recognize "stunts" and other obvious attempts at sales spikes for what they are, rather than as purely narrative elements.
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Re: Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topi

Post by anarky »

I don't think it's entirely us getting old and unable to appreciate the magic. Atomic Robo, G.I.Joe: A Real American Hero, and Transformers ReGeneration One all do (IMHO) a remarkable job of having the same feel as comics from the 80s and 90s, and are amazing. (I especially love how TFRGO will mention something that happened in, say, #48, and have a footnote referring to that issue as if it weren't over twenty years old and anyone could still go out and find it in a back issue bin easily.)

I've said before and will again: writers and editors try so hard for "mature" superhero comics without understanding A) mature means more than gore and adult content, and/or B) these are comics about flying people who wear their underwear to beat up other flying people in their underwear, so you can't get too serious for too long. I don't mind changing the status quo, so long as I can get up to speed to the new state of things. When the status quo is changed for reasons that are clearly inorganic and designed to shake things up (in other words, if it doesn't fit with how the character acts, barring some major change).
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Post by anarky »

As for the IP thing, I really and truly believe that, while Marvel and DC want to keep publishing comics, Disney and Warner do not. The profit margin isn't what you get from other uses of the IP's (especially TV and movies), and it's kind of a niche market now. I worry about the state of traditional comics, because the two companies that are most vital for the health of the industry, and that have the most clout to change things, are run by conglomerates who don't give a shit.
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Re: Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topi

Post by RoIIo Tomassi »

jjreason wrote:Extremely interesting. I did have "some" preconceived notion about heroes before comics though - my true first forays were the Batman live action series from the 60s and Spidey's appearances on The Electric Company, not to mention the Legion of Superheroes or whatever they called that "Wonder Twin Powers, Activate!" bullshit way back in the day. Without those influences, I would have never looked twice at a comic - at least until Micronauts came out - which I should have mentioned above. Not one of my favorites, but definitely one of the first comics I looked into because I saw it on a spinner & loved (LOVED) the toys so much.
My first exposure to Comics were the Mego toys I received for Christmas when I was three. And I realize that at such an early age, my memories are suspect, but I feel like I already "knew" who Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, etc were.
What I was hoping to do somehow was capture what these things we all love had in common, so that there could be a blueprint of some kind for modern comics.
The most simple answer is Jim Shooter, Mark Gruenwald, Louise Jones, and the other editors of that era influencing the overall feel of the entire Universe.
My own theory is that the ownership conglomerates are too controlling - these are cash cow "entities", not beings existing in a universe under significant threat, which it used to feel like they were. Hard to put into words,and it's not exactly my thought, rather something that's been broached here 500 times or so.
I've mentioned my "rubber band theory" before. The natural state of the Universe is the status quo, or the rubber band unstretched. Each "Event" or change is the rubber band getting pulled back as taut as it will go to get readers excited about what will happen when the rubber band gets released.
But as we all know, the rubber band just snaps back to the status quo, until it gets pulled back the next time.
We've all read the words "...and nothing will ever be the same again!!!..." so many times we know it's bullshit.
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Re: Comics from your Childhood - Another "What's Wrong" topi

Post by RoIIo Tomassi »

Anyway, back to the DC books.

I started Batman probably right around the 1989 Burton film. I picked up Detective 598-600 and the Many Deaths of the Batman by Byrne in Batman 433. It was right after Jason Todd died.

Eventually a Batman crossover with Teen Titans led to starting that book, but it was the Titans Hunt story arc that I most fondly remember. My first exposure to the Teen Titans however was one of those little digest reprint books that had the first few issues of the Wolfman/Perez series. I met Deathstroke, enjoyed Donna and Kori in skimpy bikinis by the pool, and Beast Boys snark. Hooked.

I started Hawk & Dove towards the end of its run. I remember H&D being the first book that ever got cancelled on me. I didn't understand what was happening. Books ended?!

Then all that Death of Superman stuff happened and I spread out into the rest of the DCU. But I never got that into any of it. I only read GL for a year or less during Hal going crazy and Kyle taking over. Same with Artemis taking over for Diana and maybe an issue or two of Byrne's run. The beginning of Waid's run on Flash. I tried Darkstars and Superboy and Robin and probably a half dozen other series I'm forgetting, but was done before a year had gone by. Apart from Batman, DC just never revved my engine. It's funny that I'm now going back and reading all those series 25 years later.
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Post by Tom Foolery »

anarky wrote:As for the IP thing, I really and truly believe that, while Marvel and DC want to keep publishing comics, Disney and Warner do not. The profit margin isn't what you get from other uses of the IP's (especially TV and movies), and it's kind of a niche market now. I worry about the state of traditional comics, because the two companies that are most vital for the health of the industry, and that have the most clout to change things, are run by conglomerates who don't give a shit.
DC started down that road when they pushed Paul Levitz and Jeanette Kahn out and brought in Didio and then later that shrew from their failing Indie sub-studio who clearly despises all comic related things.

I have a new theory: Diabolical geniuses Bob Harras and Joe Quesada hatched a plot decades in the making. Harras got himself canned from Marvel and Quesada took over. After a significant amount of time had passed, Harras got himself hired at DC with the singular purpose he and Quesada had come up with years previously: to Destroy the company from within. Eventually, DC becomes such a toxic property, WB sells the entire thing and Marvel/Disney snaps it up for pennies on the dollar. As I said, diabolical genius.
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Post by Diabolical »

Tom Foolery wrote:I have a new theory: Diabolical genius... As I said, diabolical genius.
This is all I saw.
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Post by jjreason »

Nice catch. And if DC winds up getting bought out by Disney, leading to Marvel vs DC every month - that truly will be the end. No force in the universe could withstand that much shitty shittiness.

THINGS ABOUT THE RUNS WE LOVE:

- (often) consistent writers/art teams working for periods of time together

- consistent teams of characters & (as stupid as it sounds) constuming, so that changes are events & can be talked about with excitement

- serialized storylines that you can follow by purchasing 1 - shocker 1 - book per month

- content likely intended for 16 years of age but more than suitable for younger OR older audiences (and there to me is the real rub)

What else?
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Post by Diabolical »

Long running subplots that actually get a payoff rather than get forgotten about, retconned or bastardized (Bishop's hunt for the X-Men's eventual betrayer *coughOnslaughtcough*).

Stories NOT being interrupted once or twice a year by a big event tie-in or massive crossover.

Though bubbles.
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Post by RoIIo Tomassi »

Many (not all, but quite a few) modern writers have a complete disregard and lack of respect for the continuity which has come before. And this most likely extends to the editors as well.

Back in "the day"(which for us was the 80s) many of the writers/editors were guys who had been there from the beginning, like Roy Thomas, or they were such huge nerds(and I mean that as a sincere compliment) like Mark Gruenwald that kept a tight eye on continuity and characterization. They protected the fictional universe.

Now, to be fair, there was a lot LESS to keep track of. Remember, when the Marvel Age started there were only 16 bi-monthly titles for most of the 60s. And some of those weren't even Superhero books. Marvel probably put out more "in continuity" issues last YEAR, then Stan and co. put out in the first DECADE. And think about it, by the time the 80s rolled around, even though there was 20 years worth of continuity, it was contained by one title for Avengers, one for X-Men, one for the FF, (mostly) one for Spidey, etc. Nowadays you've got a dozen X-books and Avengers titles. Each. That's a lot of continuity piling up at an alarming rate.
Even though 1987 was the halfway point time wise for the Marvel Age, I'd say 80% of the continuity of the entire 50+ years has happened in the last twenty years. Only because the output of issues has exploded exponentially. I'd say modern editors like Axel Alonso and Steve Wacker have easily produced 10x as many issues as Stan Lee did during his entire tenure as EiC(and by that, I mean post FF #1, not his entire run since the 40s).

But it comes down to the same thing. There's no Mark Gruenwald continuity cop currently working at Marvel.
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